Frequently Asked Questions related to Health Professions Advising

compiled by Prof. Craig Story from his own personal experience

(student names have been deleted or changed to protect the innocent)

Topic: The most frequently asked question

(I actually wrote up a separate document for this one, which is why the answer is so long).

Q: "What is the medical school admissions rate for students applying to medical school after graduating from Gordon College?”

A: As Gordon’s director of pre-health professions (HP), also known as the premed advisor, I can best field your question about the rate of acceptance into medical school. Though occasionally you may hear a particular number quoted, one can never be sure what that number actually means. The HP advisors I have met as a rule do not quote specific numbers because there really is no such single statistic. We know how many students applied and how many have been accepted each year, but this information does not necessarily address the question being asked. For example, you must also consider whether these applicants were applying to allopathic or osteopathic schools, or offshore/international schools. Were they reapplicants or first-time applicants? Also, especially when comparing schools, it would be important to know if the applicants were preselected or not. This is why there is really no simple answer.

At Gordon we do not preselect who can apply to medical school—anyone can apply, even if they are not well-qualified. There are always a number of such students who have low GPA and MCAT scores but very high hopes. On the other hand, very competitive schools have accepted Gordon students in the past, and that continues. About three to five students apply to allopathic or osteopathic medical schools from Gordon each year, and of these usually two or three are shoo-ins, and two are borderline and often still gain admission. My definition of borderline would be: Science GPA of 3.0 (out of 4.0), taking physics at another school during the summer, and scoring a 27 on MCAT. Though it may be true that such a person could be a great doctor, they will definitely have more of a challenge getting in. Gordon recently has also sent students to veterinarian, optometry, physician assistant, and nursing schools. I do my best to provide Gordon students with extensive, up-to-date advice on a variety of healthcare fields.

I believe Gordon’s premed program compares very favorably with other schools, and our students have the additional “small school” advantage of really getting to know their professors well, which definitely helps them when it comes time to request a recommendation. The HP seminar class I lead each year goes a long way to helping students understand the full range of what is available in medicine today. In this course the students discuss important topics (ethical issues) and meet various doctors and other practitioners of medicine each week. As other HP advisors have said, “The health professions program doesn’t get them in; the students get themselves in.” So, if one of our students does well academically, scores 30 or better on the MCAT, and has the distinctive mark of a Gordon student (this is a big plus), I have every confidence they will get in.

Topic: Taking Physics somewhere else

First off, what is your reason for not taking Physics at Gordon? If it is concern over GPA, it is better to get a lower grade and learn more physics, do well on MCAT, than get a higher GPA and do less well on MCAT.  See attached MCAT/GPA chart, which may be helpful. MCAT physics questions are non-calc based. You absolutely should talk to the professor to find out about the course. Maybe it is taught by a SUPER DUPER prof. If so, get a letter to that effect from him/her to allay any fears, read below.

Beware if your course is being taught at a “community college.” (Typically a place that offers associate degrees, allied health, and the like.) These are universally looked down upon by admissions people, since the experience there will not be on par with that of a private liberal arts college or university.

You are writing today, and the course starts tomorrow? Yes, the course will qualify you for your biology major, but I do not (in my heart) believe you will learn cover the material as well in a summer course as you would in a full semester course at Gordon. Let me quote from the MSAR (Medical School Admission Requirements) book put out by AAMC:

“The study and practice of medicine are based on modern concepts in biology, chemistry, and physics, and on an appreciation of the scientific method. Hence, mastery of these basic scientific principles is expected of all entering medical students. Medical schools generally require successful completion of on academic year (two semesters or three quarters) of biology and physics and one academic year each of general and organic chemistry. These courses should be academically rigorous and acceptable for students majoring in these areas. All science courses should include adequate laboratory experiences.”  (my italics).  Page 11, 2007-2008 MSAR

So, consider yourself advised... 

"RIGOROUS AND ACCEPTABLE FOR STUDENTS MAJORING IN THESE AREAS"

Topic: Deadlines and Timelines (Read TWICE!)

The email exchange below occurred on the Health Professions Listserve. Please do not be a "sad sack!" It is never too early to request letters and get your folder started. Here is the email exchange with names deleted to protect the innocent.

Dear Friends,
I'm hoping to hear from those of you who have instituted office deadlines
for your pre-health students as they use your committee evaluation system in
place.

Our office notoriously was plagued by alumni waiting until Dec./Jan. (or
later) to ask our office to forward their committee evaluation packet to
professional schools. We typically send those packets during the summer,
trying to reinforce that the earlier one applies and one's packet is
completed, the better it is for the applicant. This year, in order to deter
the "later than late", we instituted a NOV.1 deadline, advertised on our
website, saying that no evaluation packets would be sent from our office
after that date. And of course, as fate would have it, I have two alums now
speaking with the deans of my school, wanting to make exceptions to the rule
(for various and sundry reasons I won't go into!).

If you have a deadline used by your office, and if you've encountered
situations such as the one I've stated, can you please advise me on how you
handled it? I'm wondering about some kind of petition policy or any other
alternative I might offer in the future for those who simply can't follow
the procedures in place which seem to work for the majority.

Thank you,
[Name and School of Advisor #1 Removed]


Dear [Advisor #1]:

I have the same problem with procrastinators, but not nearly so
extended as in your case. I never refuse to send letters, but I make it
clear that those who don't follow deadlines will be at the bottom of the
priority barrel. Principal deadlines detailed in a guide are:

Feb. 1 - All individual letters must be in hand.
March 1 - All components of the file must be complete.
April 1 - Committee letter is completed.
June 1 - AMCAS, AACOMAS and VMCAS applications submitted.

To reinforce things, we have an annual meeting near Nov. 1 at
which previous applicants who were on the ball talk about the numerous
interview offers they received early, the tremendous edge they had over
their tardy friends, etc. Paired with each such speaker is a sad sack
who had not read the guide, was clueless about needing a Commitee
letter, thought that the latest AMCAS deadline was the due date, etc.
This last is very effective in motivating serious applicants.

Sincerely yours, [Name of Advisor #2 Removed]

Topic: I'm a Junior, what shoud I be doing?

Q :I'm writing with a question about Pre-Med and the application process for Med School. I feel as though I have been getting much information at Health Professions Seminar about what it's like to go to Medical School and to be a Doctor, however, I still have the feeling that i'm largely unaware of what the application process is supposed to look like. For example, things that i should be doing, or getting ready to do, right now as i ready myself for application. If there is any advice you could give me on that subject, for example, when applications will be available and when they need to be completed, when i should sign up for MCATs, etc., I would much appreciate any input you could send my way.

A: You should consult the timeline file published by AMCAS <http://www.aamc.org/students/considering/timeline.htm>. (This same form is also found under the Allopathic Med School link in this website.) There is also a short Gordon-specific form that distribute at the start of every HP seminar class. I encourage you to look at the AMCAS website <http://www.aamc.org> and look over the info on the MCAT, also readily available online. You really need to prepare specifically for the test if possible, and do the best you can on the FIRST try. Don't go into it thinking, well, i will do better when I re-take it.

Practice exams are available right on the website.

The exam is now offered multiple times each year, and only in a computer-based format. Search online for many tips on MCAT success.

updated 9-25-07

Topic: What to do after Secondary Applications are received?

Q: I have just received my first two requests from medical schools for secondary applications. This is the part in the process where they ask for letters of recommendation. Do we have a pre-medical committee at Gordon? Who is on it? Professor Pompidoo has already written me a letter, and should have a copy on his computer. Dr. Banana said in May that she was willing to write one as well, but I was going to contact her closer to the time and send her a resume, etc. I am going to ask Dr. Doolittle if she would be willing to write me one as a non-science professor. How does the process work? Does every professor submit their recommendations to you and you compile them?

A: That's great you got secondary applicatons, you should get at least 4 letters of recommendation, there is a form you sign that is a waiver that you agree not to look at the letters, did you fill that out yet? That is now available under the forms section of this website. Also, there is another evaluator form, that you give to people you are asking to write you a letter of evaluation which gives some instruction to the faculty on what is desirable in the letters, for example, it's not very useful to include info on grades, since that is in your transcript. They want to hear about you as a PERSON, and it's good to tell your advisors to emphasize issues of your character, etc. (in your case you are obviously an A student, so the schools will be looking at you saying "does this student have a life outside of the library or not?). Finally, please check out the advice found in "Med Application Hints.pdf" also found in the forms section.

Make sure all letters are sent to Margie Roaf, and it is also helpful if in addition to a signed copy an electronic version is emailed.

I will compose a composite letter, then the HP committee will read and sign it. Of course, I will also throw my evaluation into the letter, to answer your question. That's pretty much the extent of what the committee does. It's mostly yours truly that does all the hard work on the letter. (wink). If you want your letter to get done in a timely fashion, be sure I have received a copy of your VITA form, and preferably a copy of your AMCAS essay.

Topic: Calculus

Q: How much Calculus should I take for premed?

A: If you are a Biology major, your calculus requirement will be more than sufficient. Generally most schools require only 3 hours (equivalent of 4 hours at Gordon, meaning one semester), however a few selective schools including UCLA, UCSD, Harvard Med School, Duke do require a full year of calculus, Johns Hopkins requires 6 hours of calc or statistics. Calculus with precalculus is also an option for all students, and is only recommended for students who are weak in math. Note, it's weak in math, not just "I have never had calculus." We have heard from math professors that it is not uncommon for students enrolled in calc with precalc who could and probably should have directly taken calculus.

9/25/07 update: Biology majors are now required to take "Survey of Calculus" and "Biostatistics" as their normal sequence. This is sufficient for many medical schools, however for ultimate competitiveness, it would be best to take a full year of calculus as well as the biostastics. So you would want to plan to take "regular" calc I rather than survey.

Topic: Writing Requirement for Premeds

Q: Besides EN110 Writing and Rhetoric, what courses do you recommend for the writing courses?

A: Actually, only one writing course is required, in addition to the other English courses that are part of the Core curriculum. Any writing course is fine (poetry, fiction, non-fiction). More writing is always better. Most of the upper level courses require EN212, Introduction to Creative Writing. Keep in mind that many of the top students actually have not taken EN110, and I do recommend it even for them. Professor Marcotte has told me that EN110 should not be thought of as "remedial" in any way. Also, she has said that that one thing many students need improvement on is learning to write appropriately for different audiences.

One other way some students have accomplished the writing requirement is to become a writing tutor. As a part of this, students do receive some direct instruction. The experiene of being a tutor can be very beneficial, but is not for everyone. All premed students should continually work on their writing, as they will be composing numerous essays in the application process. Poor writing could be a deal-breaker for the application.

To be clear: As of 2007, 81 out of 125 medical schools require two semesters of "English." At Gordon, the Core takes care of one semester of English (if you take two quads of literature classes) and a writing course would take care of the other semester. Gordon's premed program requires students to have writing rather than simply literature or other English courses for their own benefit. As advisor, I want to make sure our premed students haven't completely missed out on taking a writing/composition course while at Gordon.

Topic: PA school

Regarding PA school, I had a recent IM session with a ’04 grad who said PA is very competitive. Here is our “IMversation”:

alumna: and I found out on Thursday of last week that I was accepted into Northeastern's PA program

alumna: so I sent in my deposit and acceptance letter

Story: Hey, that's great. I'm learning more about PAS, apparently there is a lot of competition to get in, is that right?

alumna: ya big time

alumna: at UNE there were 650 applicant, around 100 interviews and 35 spots

Story: wow, amazing

alumna: I am not sure how many applicants applied to northeastern, but there were around 100 interviews and only 34 students

alumna: grades and letters are key in getting the interviews but experience goes a LONG ways

alumna: I would advise any student to start working in a hospital or any job with patient care as early as possible, even the summer after freshman year is not too early

Story: do the schools publish average GPAs/GREs and stuff like that?

alumna: actually neither une or northeastern require gre's

alumna: definately some do, duke, emory, and what not

alumna: northeastern is actually one of the top 10 or 15 pa schools in the nation cus it is affiliated with harvard med, and new england medical center, and tufts med

Story: you da man

Story: i'm psyched for you. where do you read about the "levels" of pa schools?

alumna: AAPA.org is a great site

alumna: it has links to all the programs in the nation

And, here is my question with three responses (A1-A3)  from the advisors listserv, with identifying info removed to protect the innocent.

Q: I have a couple of students interested in PA school. One recently asked the

following question, which I pass on to the listserv: Is there a good source

of comparative information about the competitiveness of various schools,

analogous to MSAR? My advisee and I would be grateful for information you

may have. Any general comments you may have about students applying to PA

school would probably also be of wide interest, I suspect. Thanks!

A1: It seems as if I get questions about PA on a daily basis from my students. There are so many more potential students than there are PA programs, at least in Mass. I suggest you purchase the on-line PA Programs directory from aapa.org . The following is quoted from that site:

"APAP publishes two directories each year: the APAP Faculty Directory, containing faculty contact information and other resource material, and this PA Programs Directory. Both are now available on-line for APAP members and subscribers. Another useful publication is the Annual Report on Physician Assistant Educational Programs in the United States, which contains information on faculty, programs, student characteristics, practice specialties and settings, and the geographic distribution of PA graduates. The report is also available on-line in the Member's Only section of APAP's home page, www.apap.org."

A2: There is a website designed to inform students/faculty about specifics

of existing PA programs but I believe there is a subscription fee

($35/year) required to access the site and information as a member.  The

organization is the Association of Physician Assistant Programs and the

url is:

http://www.apap.org/

There may be other free sites available out there but this one is

probably the most comprehensive.

A3: I forwarded this e-mail on PA rankings to a recent applicant of mine who got into every PA school he applied to including Yale and Emory.  Here is what he said.

From: [deleted]

Sent: Tue 2/7/2006 9:30 AM

To: [deleted]

Subject: Re: [NEAAHP] PA school ratings?

The only rankings for PA school are those done by US NEWS and World Report.  They are bogus as they are subjective (relying on admissions directors analysis only) and only take into account Master's degree programs.  The best program in the country right now is a 2-year associates program.  The fact is, all schools that are accredited MUST teach the same material for the PANCE exam.  The rest is all interpersonal issues or schools focusing on aspects that students are interested in (for example, Emory has a public health focus, Yale has a surgery and EM focus).  

The best place to get feedback on the schools by students who attend them, along with practicing PAs, is www.physicianassistant.net 

They have an extensive discussion of just about every school in the country and with over 7000 members, just about any question can be answered.

Topic: Test Prep courses

Q: Should I take a test prep course?

A: Usually I tell my students to save their money. Here's what one HP advisor wrote on a listserve about the issue:

"One of the things I like to stress to my students is that THEY need to do the appropriate preparation for MCATS, DATS, etc. These companies seek to earn a profit and their prices are out of this world. I believe that in order for a student to properly prepare for this type of exam, it will require six to nine months of preparation to perform well. The only thing these companies offer, in my opinion, is organization, time management during the exam, and review of subject matter contained on the exam. ALL OF THIS can be done by the motivated student with appropriate time input.

These companies appeal to the type A, obsessive compulsive personality that predominates in many of these students. They also appeal to the parents by suggesting that if their child takes this expected course, the company will "guarantee " a better outcome and hence admission to health professional school.
The idea that the company reps are "consultants" really, in my opinion again, is a scam. The bottom line to their "motivation" to "help" the student is really all about money."

Return to Main Gordon HP page

Page reviewed and updated 9/25/07